Past Videos on Antiquity:
A History of Medusa Then & Now: https://youtu.be/UHHZwugw-XQ
Why Isn’t Disney’s Hera Evil: https://youtu.be/azk7SHMbotc
That Time Tumblr Made Up a Goddess: https://youtu.be/pdb7HZEZsA4
The Biggest Misconceptions About Ancient Greece: https://youtu.be/IC05wThOJUY
Where to Start with Ancient Greek Literature: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eF1_lppHug
A Video All About my PhD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8auTBV6QoU&t=1788s
My Myth Retellings Database: https://www.jeanmenzies.com/myth-retellings-database
You can support my podcast and channel on…
Ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/jeansthoughts
Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/bookishthoughts
Ancient Sources Mentioned:
Homeric Hymns (Hymn to Demeter): https://amzn.to/3InxEuW
Apollodorus’ Library of Greek Mythology: https://amzn.to/3SnLq55
Hesiod’s Theogony: https://amzn.to/3ZfFI7U
Diodorus Siculus’ Library of History (Volume iii): https://amzn.to/3EyEoov
…………………………………………………………………………………………………..
Pre-order my 2023 Books:
Goddesses and Heroines: Meet More Than 80 Powerful Women From Around the World: https://uk.bookshop.org/a/2086/9780241609774
Greek Myths: Gods and Goddesses (MCL): https://uk.bookshop.org/a/2086/9781529093346
Greek Myths: Heroes and Heroines (MCL): https://uk.bookshop.org/a/2086/9781529093360
Academic Volume I contributed to coming out in 2023: https://amzn.to/40eivEe
My Other Books:
Greek Myths: https://amzn.to/3y4me9P
Egyptian Myths: https://amzn.to/3dxcueF
The Flames of Albiyon: https://amzn.to/3SfEvtP
………………………………………………..
Where else can you find me?
📚 Website: https://www.jeanmenzies.com
📚 Twitter: http://twitter.com/jeansthoughts
📚 Instagram: http://instagram.com/jeansthoughts
📚 Goodreads: https://www.goodreads.com/user/show/6206860-jean
📚 TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jeansthoughts
📚 Wishlist: https://www.amazon.co.uk/hz/wishlist/ls/20WQNSU6TOA06?ref_=wl_share
Some links may be affiliate links!
source
Madeline Miller has been writing a Persephone retelling and I do wonder what her take will be- considering her version of Circe I think she wouldn’t shy away from it being an abduction story.
Thank you so much for making this video! it was really interesting 🙂 Personally I generally really like modern myth retellings because they often recontextualize something to fit more with modern values/ideals (like how a lot of people say how Athena is a protector of SA survivors because of what happened with Medusa even though that's not something covered in ancient texts iirc, or how Hades's aim was always to empower Persephone to reach her own potential even without him etc etc) and that's all fine and I really like that people (including myself) find comfort in that, but it irks me so much when people then claim that these modern myths are based on some hidden texts or claim that ancient people's believed that – The ancient Greeks not believing something doesn't take away from the power that story can have Today but it does take away from understanding an ancient society better? (hope that makes sense?) – Either way just glad now I have this excellent video to point people to when they claim there is evidence of a consensual Hades & Persephone relationship.
Until I found booktube 3 years ago I had no idea Hades & Persephone retellings were a thing and popular. It did surprise me because I had read the myths as a kid, and the story is very dark and not just a fun enemies-to-lovers story.
Maybe the Disney Hercules movie is one reason it became popular. I've never seen the movie since I am old (lol) but I have friends who do love the movie and have made their kids fans. In fact, a few years ago, her 3 kids were in a Children's Theatre production of the Hercules movie. Xander played Hades and had so much fun with his blue-dyed hair. Lol
I did read a retelling last year that is very dark and much closer to the original myth. It is a scifi called Destroyer of Light by Jennifer Marie Brissett.
Great video and essay!
A retelling focusing on the actual trauma the story is about, as well as the strong bond between mother and daughter would be great. So would one where goat Persephone kidnaps Hades to make him god of the mushrooms 😹
I think I disagree a bit with what you said at the ending – that modern retellings maybe imply that Persephone is less of a strong female character because of the sexual violence she experiences.
To be honest I think these retellings mostly happen the way they do because of Hades and not because of Persephone. Hades as the ruler of the underworld, just appeals to people the way personifications of death usually do….to put it bluntly: he is an edgy cool mcmuffin that people want to like and if he is a rapist and a kidnapper of his niece that's a tad bit difficult to do.
So I think that retellings that still want to have a feminist view point have the problem of wanting their cake and eating it too.
Meaning that the appeal of writing about Hades and Persephone probably often starts with thinking that the concept of Hades as a love interest is thrilling to them and they like the whole opposites attract thing with Persephone being the youthful spring like character and Hades the cold, grumpy counterpart……but then they probably do know that persephone has actually been abducted in the original versions (even if they are misinformed they would probably know of at least SOME VERSION that has persephone as a victim) and don't want to erase her experience cause that would not feel very progressive. So then their solution to this is to just keep the experience but change the perpetrator.
To conclude, I don't think modern retellings need Persephone to be in this consensual relationship with Hades to be a strong female character, it's probably just more so that her being a strong female character isn't really why people chose to retell this story to begin with, they just have the hots for Hades. lol Or maybe I am just being cynical. ^^ It's really interesting to hear about these myths from someone that truly knows about the ancient texts though and I totally agree that people shouldn't date back these modern retellings and pretend like they align with the original versions.
Love this video essay!
Thank you for speaking the truth out loud that Hades & Persephone is not an original love story!
And I totally agree with you, that Demeter deserves more spotlight
Amazing essay Jean. I was wondering where this fascination with Hades and Persephone is coming from…I think it can be because of the bookish Internet' s obsession with tropes. The Hades/Persephone myth fits in with the 'enemies to lovers' mould very well.
I find it a bit strange that a lot of readers are so captivated by these tropes, that it seems like the trope itself comes first and all the rest (story, characters etc) are secondary .
Don't get me wrong I'm not shaming anyone who like to read these tropes, but I personally would get bored reading the same story over and over again.
I would love to read a retelling from Persephone's point of view that’s not a romance.
I think the people who are flipping out on you on you on BookTok might be a bit too invested in this 'enemies to lovers' trope.
Please keep making these videos Jean, even if some people get angry at you. 😅It's really important to talki about these topics without trying to romaticising it. xx
I've pondered on this for a while and the replacement of Hades as a rapist makes a lot of sense. People want to like him because he is a perfect case of a dark brooding man, and this type character is most loved at the moment. However what I see in fandoms: reaction to sexual abuse in fiction is more severe than reaction to murder. So in order to get an attractive hero, that detail is tranformed or erased. Voila, we have our trope in a beautiful mythological setting. I honestly think it's as simple as that.
It's always interesting to see how the gods are viewed from people in the mainstream as a pagan, who actually believes in these gods and worships some of them (though hades and persephone aren't part of the gods I actively worship). Most of us see the myths of metaphorical- in this case, a metaphor for the changing of the seasons and arguably a metaphor for the transition from childhood to adulthood, and reflections of the society and the people who wrote them down. They aren't literally things that the gods have done. So it's kinda frustrating to see people fall into either seeing gods like Hades as a evil villain or changing and manipulating the story into something it historically wasn't. (though I'm not against retellings, just people falsely saying their version is historical.) When to me and many other modern pagans, neither of these things are the truth. I also love what you say about how myths are allowed to change, but we should still understand what they were and what they meant to the people that originally told them!
In the "Star Wars" movies the sound of exploding spaceships can be "heard" in the emptiness of space. It's interesting to have that wrongness pointed out once or twice, but becomes tedium when turned into the focus of discussion. Violence against women is absent of almost any restraints in Greek Mythology. But when telling the Greek Myths it's almost always more interesting to just tell the story. Because telling these ancient stories is not an approval of that violence. "…Aren't the Cute Couple…"? I say we follow the advice of another Homer and "let the baby have his bottle". Let them continue imagining Hades & Persephone to be a Classical version of Harry & Meghan. Feminist re-imaginingsre-tellings of Greek Myths in inept hands is about as fun as listening to "Christian Rock"!
im glad i subcribed to your channe! looking forward for more mythology content
I’m so glad you did this video. I have been reading a lot of mythology before I start my dive into the plethora of retellings that are being pushed out on us readers. I love to know what the original story was, before I read a re-telling ( that’s the nerd part in me 😅) I was wondering why most of these epic romances didn’t match up with what the original story was and why very few people seem to know. Love how your video is so informative. Keep them coming. 😊
Such an incredible video that I learnt so much! Thank you so mcuh Jean! I have seen the musical Hadestown at the beginning of the year. While Hades and Persephone were not the main characters (it's a story about Orpheus and Eurydice), they were both key side characters and their existence moved the story forward. I do notice that Persephone was not happy when she saw Hades (at this point they already made the arrangements for her to go back to the living world but come back to the underworld for a chunk of time a year. And this musical happens in one year Hades holds Persephone for longer than he should be, so it's winter in the living world for a long time). Persephone especially expressed her dismay at seeing Hades so early and they seemed to have some troubles in their relationship. But in the meantime, it also delivers the image of the beginning of Hades-Persephone relationship was sweet, they just drifted apart over years and that's why Persephone doesn't want to stay with him.
Isn't the reason that the aggressor is changed in the stories because she ends up/remains married to Hades? With the aggressor being someone else and not the one she's married to the story doesn't have to tackle a story where the abuse survivor remains with their abuser. That kind of narrative can be hard to balance. It ends with us by colleen hoover is criticized all the time for having a an end like that.
I wasn't aware of retellings framing the myth of Persephone and Hades as a love story. I grew up reading the still-in'print D'Aulaires' Book of Greek Myths. Even though some of the stories have been bowdlerized for children, they don't gloss over the fact that Persephone was kidnapped by Hades and held against her will. I am so glad I learned these myths at a young age. Just last week someone at work told me of an acquaintance who was planning to name her child Artemis when she is born. That was all the encouragement I needed to launch into how you shouldn't mess with such a kick-ass goddess as Artemis and told my co-worker the story of Actaeon. Also, I love your Wedgwood pendant. I have several pieces of their jewelry and recognized your pendant right away–I have the same design in a dark blue brooch.
Thank you for making this video! I really learned a lot. I don’t remember much about Hades & Persephone and from what I do remember is that it’s not a consensual relationship, which always leads to confusion when retellings are romantic. I’ve actually put off reading retellings of the 2 because of not knowing much and there being that disconnect between what I knew “& what I was seeing in modern texts. I always learn so much from your videos! I really appreciate the passion and the knowledge you put into them & I’m sorry you’ve gotten a lot of vitriolic responses for something you clearly are an expert in.
Absolutely fantastic video, Jean, thank you so much for making it. I have gotten in so many arguments over this topic 😅 Would you recommend Andrew Lang's translation of the Homeric Hymns? I see you're working off the Oxford edition, but I'm hoping you're familiar with both and can tell me if it's accurate enough. Thank you!!
Great video, I always feel like I learn so much from you and am grateful for your time in sharing your knowledge.
Honestly I can’t imagine arguing over the internet about Hades and Persephone’s relationship with someone who has studied Ancient Greece for years 🙄 I guess it’s possible some of those people also had PhDs 😂
I LOVE this video! I am currently studying both classics and creative writing with the intention of publishing a retelling more in line with the ancient myth. Orpheus and Eurydice is the other story I am working on.
Thank you for giving us a run down on the myth in antiquity. I personally like Hades & Persephone retellings as a love story (I'm a sucker for a good love story) BUT I'm picky about it and I've read versions I really dislike. Abusive relationships are never ok. I think about Superhero stories now because let's face it, Superheroes are US mythology but what will or will not survive. Could Superman survive as Ultraman instead. I'm babbling but I hope I'm making sense. My point is myths are stories we will tell and retell for as long as humans exist BUT knowing the "original" surviving stories are also important. Thanks again and love this kind of discussion.
The story you told was the story im familiar with. When I was young I got myth books from the library.x
I've got a theory! Modern day Hades and Persephone retellings are NOT retellings of the ancient myth… they are retellings of each other, retellings of the modern day Hades and Persephone who have become so popular.
i love these video essay videos!!! thank you for making them!
Well done! Love your video. I think, making Hades the hero and Demeter the villain in modern retellings is another proof of how much we are all influenced by patriarchy. It just fits in so perfectly in all the stereotypes about the evil mother-in-law…