🏺⚜️🍇 The Big Fat Greek Reason I haven’t played Hades 🍇⚜️🏺
#hades #supergiantgames #greek #videoessay
What does being Greek and being raised in Montréal have to do with not being able to enjoy Hades, Supergiant’s critically acclaimed Greek mythology action roguelike game? Turns out, a lot. As game studios flaunt progressive commitments, should we be praising them for only delivering the bare-minimum in terms of diverse representation? Are American diversity standards enough for a global audience with different worldviews? And most importantly: why is nobody in Hades actually Greek?
This video is a spiritual successor to:
This Game gives your Phone to a Refugee | “Bury Me My Love”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M00Y_EyvjCI
⚜️ 1995 Québec Referendum (0:00)
⛔ Why I haven’t Played Hades (7:32)
🪓 Greek Virtues in Games (13:46)
🏺 Greek Representation in Media (29:31)
🔱 What kinds of Greeks are in Hades? (1:01:19)
🍇 Διονύσιος εναντίον Διονύσιος (1:19:06)
🌲 Wine & Pine (1:33:00)
💩 The Supergiant Epiphany is BS (1:40:47)
💪 The Dorian Invasion & Heracles (1:54:52)
🦉 Nobody Here is Greek (2:01:03)
⛓️ Park Ex – Boulevard de l’Acadie (2:10:16)
🛹 Endscreen (2:14:27)
— Other Tech and Social videos —
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1gRusg8mhTB3_E1jWvDMt2iWX_MFhg1j
— Support —
Patreon:
https://www.patreon.com/LambHoot
Shirts:
http://lambhoot.com/swag
— Social Media / Contact —
Discord Server:
https://discord.gg/8Dh2nsR
Last Life
https://last-life.net/author/lambhoot/
— My Other Videos —
Video Game Playlist
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1gRusg8mhTC7mZnhwJZifMYhmRKb8A5W
— Works Cited and Sources —
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oSK1jzca4URJJg98OmKfXnQxL052V2rl6s8IRi4Jyko/edit?usp=sharing
source
I guess I should be grateful that Cuban culture isn't mined for cheap entertainment the same way Greek culture is, I would probably feel the same way you do. Very fascinating and enlightening video, definitely gave me a deeper appreciation for those that take issue with seeing something they love and identify with get trampled on with little care and attention.
The zeibekiko is an absolutely beautiful tradition. Thanks so much for sharing all of this, I learned a lot.
This was an absolutely fantastic video. I’ve been a massive fan of Supergiant games since before Hades was announced, and as I’ve explained before I have some mechanical issues with Hades, but I was not equipped to notice the (in retrospect) glaring issues with this game’s representation. I do remember that when Hades was announced, I found the choice to adapt stories from a real life mythology to be a bit odd considering the studio’s history. All of the studio’s previous games feature entirely original universes with their own cosmologies and histories. Supergiant is extraordinarily talented at creating vivid and detailed fictional worlds, but the ability to make fantasy land necessitates a different skill set than adapting someone’s real life cultural heritage. Even before watching this video, I was really disappointed with Hades’ storytelling. For whatever reason, I just found all of the characters incredibly flat, at least in comparison to Supergiant’s previous outing. Pyre, their previous game, is such a fascinating game featuring a cast of fantasy misfits playing ritualistic sporting goods to escape a wasteland prison dimension. Each character was given their own fleshed out personality that was fleshed out and deepened over the course of your adventures, and their individual arcs all tied into the games broader themes about liberation and what it truly means to be free. Coming to Hades, most of the characters were comparatively shallow and one note renditions of Greek gods that have kind of already been done. Dionysus is the happy wine guy and the characterization doesn’t go beyond that. I guess for me the characters couldn’t hold a candle to the chipper dog-person smuggler who was banished to the wasteland for trying to support his family with his craft. Pyre is the actual best Supergiant game about escaping the underworld, and Hades doesn’t even come close. It’s such a shame because I know this studio is capable of some truly amazing stories when they just come up with their own stuff. Again, this was an excellent video and I’m excited for part 2
Eye-opening…
Love the end-screen BTW!
It's kinda funny, the title and the thumbnail combo answer eachother so well, I got a feeling for a second that it'd be redundant to watch the video.
I'm still gonna watch it, still wanna hear the whole thing, but those 4 words in the thumbnail gave me a pretty clear idea of your reasons. I played a ton of the game and reading "nobody here's greek", my immediate thought was "yeeeeeeeeah".
This vieo was so interesting. It was really fantastic and I learned a lot about Greek history and mythology. Good job Dionysios!
Your insert thesis of digitally cultural characters acted by white dudes being blackface is…wow, a really good point-wow. Whole video-solid stuff, with a lot of open, honest conversation. Everybody is looking for black and white good and bad, I really appreciated your approach to this topic. Awesome stuff from a fellow-Canadian!
Great video! I didn't realize until watching that I knew nothing of modern Greek culture, which was very embarrassing.
With that said, why was it Achilles of all characters that you kept bringing up with regards to blondness? He's one of the figures whose hair is most reliably translated as blond (which I assume you know) and so I feel like I'm missing some subtle extra point.
As far as skin color goes I'm…. not sure I exactly agree that they're either white or blond. They have blue or ash-gray skin and funky rainbow anime hair, and not in a way that feels like a stand-in for "white" or "blond".
This is just a nit-pick I get your larger point about the lack of greek authenticity, but when you flash Zag on screen like "this boi white", I'm like "he looks like he took a bath in gray sharpie fluid tho".
And those who are white are more #000000 white or with an unnatural tint like blue or green.
Voices still all white tho, no denying that.
This video is interesting but at the same time I feel like you could've been a bit more succinct in your arguing
Well Lambhoot, I certainly don't agree with everything you say. But what I love about your content (and especially this video) is how you're able to use videogames to as a gateway to discuss unique of topics. I've learned so many interesting things from this channel that I would never stumble across by myself.
Can't wait for whatever you've got cooking up next.
Okay so not gonna comment on your appreciation of the game that’s a you taste thing, and plus I can sympathize with the immigrant experience of minorities in western countries and trying to make sense of that. But the historical part of the video is bad.
So first of the basis of history as a discipline is the critic of our sources basically don’t take a thing at face value (helps if you read it in its original language) and the things you described are not a reflection of the complex, long and changing history of Greek speakers but a highly narrativized simplified nationalistic post 1821 account of how the Greek people formed a nation’s post-Ottoman empire.
So first off, the all: ‘Ethnicity is essential for Greek god’ so that was a point of the creation myth of many city states (which were never unified in any way in classical time) basically create a share ancestry among the citizens (and not all Greek speakers) but that’s not special to Greek, hell Clovis (French king) was doing the same shit in the 6th century.
But no, the ancient Greek did not have an ethnic view of their gods. For the ancients, post Alexander, to be Greek was not to be a descendant of the Dorians, but it was to have paidea (παιδεία) basically to share in a culture because yeah, the guy in Antioch or Alexandria wasn’t a fucking descendant of the Dorians. Where those people less Greek? Was the end of Greekhood Alexander conquest (literally what the Nazi believed – also props for the WW2 part of the video and its relation to antiquity that was actually one of the good historical parts of the video)?
Ethnicity for the ancient Greek was more of a cultural thing that came to be mended with latinity in the Roman empire you add Christianity to that, and you get a millennium of history of Greek speakers who kept reading Homer and enjoying Pindar’s poetry and comparing people to Herakles and Aphrodites are these cultural products wrong because done by non-Greek or as they were done by the people in renaissance Europe? Of course, no, Greek culture became global more than two thousand years ago. It was used, reused, changed turned around, written and rewritten for literally thousands of years. Photios (9th century) was probably the most knowledgeable man on Hellenic culture yet for him he was a Roman and yet he did all he could to share (he was a teacher) and preserved παιδεία which for him it wasn’t about ethnicity or a direct link to the Dorians same for Chrysoloras or Aldus Manutius (15th century).
Basically, Greek culture wasn’t the propriety of one nation state that was literally full of Christians who had to sell their independence to the Philhellenes back in the West, hell there were probably Muslim people in the Ottoman empire around the time of Greek statehood who had more direct hereditary connexion to the ancient Greek than the people who fought for a Greek nation state. And you know what, that shouldn’t matter because identity was not linked to ethnicity, nor does ethnicity have any link in history with the ability to partake or belong within a given culture what you are doing is just post 1821 Greek essentialism not history.
As a last example, Aristotle was the one who came up with the idea that literature and art were universal. For the ancient Greek when you learned, read about, or saw the myth of Medea in a play you weren’t reading about Miss Medea born in said year, who did said things, and who was of said ethnicity. No, you learned about all the rejected women, all the exiles all the children who were killed by their parent. There are two ‘ancient’ versions of the Medea play one by Euripides (Greek) Seneca (Latin) those plays where both about the same thing, viewed by different people in different contexts, that’s what the ancient believed art should be, not a weird representation of the factual and the immediate. I am gonna stop here beacon this poorly worded rant is gonna reach incredible length if I have to go with what’s historically wrong about your interpretation of eastern Christianity. You can try to make sense of your conflicting notion of identity, but don’t try to justify it with shoddy poorly digested history. The video was interesting, and I would tend to agree with you with the need for better Greek representation especially when it comes to skin colour but the way to go about it is not to pass off 19th century nationalist narratives as actual history. Sorry for the disjointed rant but there was just too much wrong from an historical standpoint.
Ἔρρωσο
I was skeptical coming into this video but I feel this one was really well stated and researched. I disagreed with your video on phasmaphobia and resi village, I didn’t believe that shitty, interconnected resident evil story was enough to right off the game itself and choose another instead. It didn’t feel fair to resi 8 as if you didn’t give it a chance, at least in a gameplay perspective. But with this video I really do agree with nearly every point, and has made me see hades in an entirely different view point. Thanks papa hoot for a great video
This video gets worse the longer I watch it.
I guess race obsession bordering on mental illness is a prerequisite to living in north america. Just manifests differently in different indviduals.
I don't agree with most points here, but I appreciate how you are able to use video games as a way to bring your arguments forward.
I’m about half way through right now. So far it’s been very eye opening.
It's an American thing in general. And in all honesty I don't think this is something that matters all that much and probably is good when left alone.
Like don't get me wrong it is SOOO cringy seeing American multiculturalism in games about Vikings or set in Norway during WW2 when there is multiculturalism in Norway that can be mined from if they wanted that.
But the fact of the matter is that Hades is a game made by an american company for an american audience. Just like AC Valhalla and Battlefield 5 is made for American audiences(even though Battlefield was made in Sweden and AC Valhalla was made in Canada). I would love to see a higher commitment to making games(and movies) set in different countries keep the language and embrace subtitles. But Americans are kinda dumb. And they really do think they are the center of the world for the most part. If we got our way and American companies would have to fully embrace the cultures of the areas they set their stories in they would very soon stop making those stories at all. And that would be bad for everyone.
when i was a kid, my family traveled to greece every summer vacation for some four years in a row. i haven't realised until now how much of an impact those vacations have had on me. at the time, i couldn't even speak english. the first 50 minutes of this video made me remember how clear the greek people we met's hospitality and culture were, even to me as a kid who had no way to verbally communicate with them. i learnt the english words used in politeness while being in greece, by greek people from copying them!
i also never felt any cultural friction, or ever thought anything they did were strange, because our cultures (Norwegian and Greek) were so incredebly similar in these (22:05 – 23:13) aspects! But if i am wrong instead, and have misunderstood my own culture my entire life, then i guess i have inherited those aspects from greek culture.
recently, at a TTRPG university society, i was in a character creation night. i as a veteran wanted to sit down at all the tables (although did on only some) and ask people how their characters were going, which is very similar to when the chef sits down at your table and talks to you in greek resturants. i get the same want when i visit friends or friends visit me, where i want make food for them and sit down and talk.
I recently were on a concert (coincidentally first proper concert in my life) in Vienna, and i thought it was super strange that nobody were dancing. so my best friend 'A' invited me and my other best friend 'B' to walk closer to the speakers and just dance and sing. B sat down after a while, and A is easily embarrased and therefore only wanted to dance on songs he knows. so even though i had not heard the artist before, i just kept dancing to rythms i did not know so that A would be less embarrased and could keep on dancing. it felt really close to a combination of how you described 23:35 and 48:30 except the dance being one of displaying joy because i felt i had not been enough with these two friends until then. There was also the difference in the dance that only i was not intoxicated, but i was high on life if that counts.
I've always had a love-hate relationship with the concept (probably more accurately, the expectations) of diversity in creative media. On the one hand, I really appreciate whenever media incorporates ethnically diverse characters while also showing great respect for the cultures that the characters come from (as you wish would have happened with Hades). However, my one gripe, which I hold perhaps more strongly as someone who likes to write novels as a hobby (which involves having to make creative character decisions), is that diversity always seemed like a Catch-22 for me (if I'm even using the term correctly). What I mean is, let's say you make a cast of characters that all share your same culture. In this case, you will almost certainly represent their cultures very well (since they're your own culture), but people might be offended by you not including more diverse characters. If you were to therefore use more diverse characters without going into too much effort to make sure that their cultures are properly respected, some people might still be offended, saying that you are superposing your culture on their culture. If you then have diverse characters while also going into much detail to make sure they exhibit many aspects of their culture, still others might say that your work is offensive, for you are either going too far with "respecting" them (in that you are actually making them stereotypes practically, since maybe not everyone of one particular culture will do everything pertaining to that culture) or you are still not going far enough with respecting them. It's just one of those things where I wanna say, "Yeah, diversity is awesome, but what's wrong with someone just wanting to tell a little story?"
I don't know; those are just my thoughts. What do you guys think? Am I thinking about this the wrong way?
Also, I really enjoyed the video, by the way. I always assumed that most Greeks were white, lol, and I had no idea about the complexities of the culture.
You can´t see Herakles in the game but he is mentioned in a diologue between Hades and Zagreus.
that line about the hellenic gods not just being the gods of greece, is such a great example of something i`ve heard jews refer to as „christian atheism“ — that is, an atheism that rejects the existence of any god or divinity, but still accepts without question the greater christian view of divinity, often without realizing that`s where those ideas comfe from. in this case, supergiant rejected the historicity of these gods, but paints them with a very christian varnish which requires them to be gods of the universe. ultimately it`s a continuation of colonialism.
What a fucking legendarily immaculate video. Racism & representation as concepts in general has become so Americanized that like you said, American creatives who want to poach Greek Mythology for a setting don't even bother to consider the diversity within those religious figures and those who worshipped them. This perspective is sorely needed in a space overly dominated by either white "gamer bro" types or folks who just never feel challenged to reconsider their thinking and perspective on the world's sociopolitical, racial, and cultural ills.
Most importantly, though, thanks for teaching me how the Greek Gods make babies at 1:53:10
Your position on Dyonisous is interesting. I do not see him as South Asian, he looks Greek to me. Olive skin, curly hair, the things you are saying you are looking for.
Now I'm not Greek, but I don't live in the US either. I live in Italy and have Greek friends who are whiter than I (Polish hertiage, yet I look like you with straight hair strangely. Granted you are in 'Winter Mode' here).
What I'm trying to say it I find it interesting that you don't see him as Greek because he doesn't look like the Greeks around you, but I see in him lots of the Greek people I work with and drink with, he's just the color they get when they come back from summer vacation. But you are right, a lot of how the US sees Italians and Greeks is really screwy, and had I not moved here I would not have coded Dyonisous as Greek either.
Get a de-esser my dude.
characters have gay sex in hades, it doesn't get more greek than this
As a 3rd generation Sicilian American this video made me sad that in an attempt to assimilate into American culture we have completely abandoned our roots. I hadn't really thought about it before, watching this has inspired me to look into my culture and understand what makes me Sicilian so my families culture isn't entirely lost because of America's will to remove what makes other cultures unique especially during the 1800s when my family immigrated here.
I thought you abandoned us 🥲
Weird to think that SMITE's Bacchus is a better representation of Dionysus than Hades' version.
I was so confused watching the first few minutes of this lol.
"Another setting as over-used for no good reason as ancient Greece" – well, I'm pretty sure norse mythology at least comes close. And yes, it's pretty badly misrepresented too, though not in the same ways. Well, except Hollywood has against all odds managed to whitewash Thor. He's supposed to have red hair and a red beard.
Ok, I've only watched about 25% of the video, and unfortunately have to stop for now, but there's something I want to comment before I forget:
As a Brazilian with at least 4 "ethnicities", and basically no contact with any of their cultural heritage, or any, for that matter, besides and "general brazillianess" and my christianity, it's extremelly interesting seeing someone so in touch with theirs.
You've presented your points so far very well, and made me really think about the way Brazil is portrayed in media, specially with how our culture seen as loud and obnoxious just like the greek one.
To be fair too, Brazil has almost the exact opposite problem, where we see each other in foreign media so rarely, we are happy with almost anything not overtly offensive.
What weirdly makes me feel exactly like you did, is the representantion of christianity in media and… Well, real life. In media, I can remember of only one character that presents actual christian virtues (Michael Carpenter, of Dresen Files, if anyone is interested. A series that is problematic in some other ways, but still). And even worse, and in this where I felt what you said, how my religion has been almost completely co-opted by Prejudiced, Racist, Homofobic, often outright Nazi cruel people, to the point that the terms "Christian" and "Evangelical" have become synonimous with these words. Of course, this doesn't compare to the suffering of the people who are subject to the actions of these people, still this… Just hurts, man.
Anyway, I got to this video expecting someone complaining about things that were very specific to their life and pain, but ended up both relating a lot, even though I come from a completely different culture (and I think this speaks about how well you presented your points) and knowing and admiring a lot about your culture!
Also, sorry about the long text, and hope what I said isn't offensive, specially considering I can only watch the rest of the video later.
This is one of the best videos that I've seen here. Your work is always really unique, especially among the kind of voices and subjects you hear here 99% of the time, and this opened my eyes to so many things that I hadn't considered before. Thank you.
Wow. This was a real interesting watch, thank you so much for a perspective I hadn’t considered before.
I learned more about Greek culture and history than I ever could in my university European history. Also I'm now craving Greek food because of your video lol.
I didn't expect to like this video.
I like the video game.
While I can't really imagine being a part of a culture that is misrepresented like you pointed out in your video, I actually think I understand what you're saying.
The SNL skits are a perfect way to highlight your disappointment in this. It is kinda bullshit that ancient Greece is just a template to slap on something so you don't have to create your own world. It would have been much better to give the characters Greek voices.
I think the lighter skin tones for the characters from the underworld would have been ok if the rest of the cast that lives above ground was darker. They're in perpetual "winter mode".
good video, and thanks for teaching about Greece and Greek people.
what was the name of that song at 7:27
You put in words, what I felt about the Fate series.
They don't actually want to deal with the background and history of the characters, they just use their name general being to outsource the job of world building.
Its not a youtube video if it doesn't open with f**king Québec
I've waited a long time for this and it delivered. Best video I've watched this year
12 hours before this video came out, I made an "I maka' da spaghetti, I cooka' da meetball " joke. I did it in a Greek restaurant.
Forgive me father, I did not know.
I will now culturally appropriate and be more kind and hospitable to all my fellow people.
I hate being so nitpicky, but Zeus wasn’t Aristotle’s god. The Greeks called the Jewish people “a religion of philosophers” because of many greek philosophers (and Aristotle among them) distinct faith of a universal singular omnipresent omniscient omnipotent perfect god, who was responsible and creator of everything, in large contrast to the extremely local and human-like gods of the Hellenic pantheon. The notion of master creator that Neeson deflected unto Zeus is just a misunderstanding of his own opinion on Christianity and lack of ability to distinguish its god from the gods of non monotheistic religions. Great video 👏👏👏
Based Jimmis references, RIP to a real one
Great video
Also it was a bit creepy to hear you say " it's 10:47 PM " when it was that exact time where I live
Im just gonna spoil Hades for you. When you beat the game, you hang out with your mom in her garden. You bring her gifts, she makes you tea and dinner. Gives more exposition each time you beat it. Then you upgrade the living area of hades so people can rest in peace better, you give each other gifts to build a relationship. Everything you complained about, Hades doesn't do. Every character loves each other. Its fucking wholesome.
I'm excited to subscribe and watch part 2. I heard the ac odyssey music and figured you would mention it. I loved the video, extremely well presented and educational. I'm pretty uninformed about greek/hellenic culture and this made me want to know more. Good stuff